Biocides and pipes

[VTVegiPower]

Hey guys, getting ready to setup my filtering system and I am wondering what types of materials I should use that won't react badly with the vo. I have read that black iron seems to work well and to stay away from galvanized. Anyone had any experiences with copper, brass, pvc, hdpe? Should I spend the money on viton hose or just use good ol' milk hose? I also wonder what kind on biocides I should use for long term storage of filtered wvo? Any info you guys have would be greatly appreciated. Thanx

[skyskijason]

Avoid galvanized and copper. Brass valves, fittings, etc. seem to be fine. Carbon steel (ie, black iron pipe) is second in line for reactivity w/VO, but it is a very distant second - generally considered OK for all but long-term storage. PVC and PEX get very brittle after extended exposure to heat and VO, but tend to fair OK. I use clear PEX for sight gauges on tanks and have avg'd changing once/year as it gets hard to see thru - but I've heard horror stories from folks using it under pressure. The clear 'braided vinyl' tubing at hardware store holds up pretty good, it just gets stiffer the longer ya use it. I use it extensively for suction hose.

VO is a biocide - however if water is present, bacteria can live in the water and 'eat' the VO. It is best to store filtered/dewatered VO - no biocide req'd.

I know there are PLENTY of fans of the centrifuge - but many have also learned it is not what they hoped it would be. They tend to not do a good job of dewatering wet VO and have a propensity to accelerate oxidative polymerization due to copious amounts of heat and oxygen they add to the VO during processing. I am of the firm opinion there are significantly cheaper ways to filter/dewater VO. Specifically, heat (110*F is plenty) and settle (24hrs for 'cleaner' VO and 2-3 days for 'dirtier/wetter' VO). I also found that water filters are not very economical if they are actually filtering anything...

Wow - thats like 3 or 4 cents worth there!! Good luck and let us know what ya end up with. There are a million ways to skin this cat. :cheers:

[HORSEMOVER]

I actually used some galvanized pipe on my still. Should I consider changing this out? I have been using it since May with no known issues. Actually not very much there as most of the plumbing is braided hose. Anyone else using galvanized? Any issues?

[skyskijason]

I actually used some galvanized pipe on my still. Should I consider changing this out? I have been using it since May with no known issues. Actually not very much there as most of the plumbing is braided hose. Anyone else using galvanized? Any issues?

Take some apart and have a look next time ya get a chance. Depending on the rest of your system and how long you plan to store the oil - it may never be a noticeable problem. Less chance of chicken-skin forming if ya keep the galv. parts submerged all the time...

Generally, just a good idea to avoid it if you can (plus black-iron is cheaper!)

[greasyX]

My picking order is this 1)Aluminum,when ever possible,2) brass ,3)black iron,4)PEX up to 6PSI pressure,5)copper(for unheated contact,such as fuel line on my B-150 boiler{WVO only supply line}and not much white tape,tends to get the "CREEPS".Hope it helpsP.s I got all the above at my local TSC (tractor supply company),buy American our economy depends on it.........greasy

[VTVegiPower]

Thanks for the input guys. I was planning to use mostly black iron with brass fittings and it sounds like that should work. Changing clear braided vinyl tubing ("milk hose" to us woodchucks here in VT ) once a year sounds pretty cost effective to me. I would like to use aluminum greasyx but that will put a big hurt on the wallet (simplecentrifuge is enough aluminum for now). As for the centrifuge Jason I plan to settle and cold upflow for about 24 hours at about 70degrees before it gets heated to 110 just before CFing. I think this should be very effective. Any ideas on how long clean/dewatered vo stored in airfree tight barrel, kept in cool area, should last without going bad?

[skyskijason]

Any ideas on how long clean/dewatered vo stored in airfree tight barrel, kept in cool area, should last without going bad?

A long time. Maybe 2 yrs or more - depending on the extent of damage from the CF.

Just curious - why bother w/CF if ya have an upflow system? I see less filters used in the long run (theoretically), but you can buy ALOT of filters for cost to set up a CF...

No-one has measured the amount of 'damage' done by CF'ing VO, but in theory - the added heat and oxygen shorten the 'shelf-life' of processed VO. We saw increased peroxide values (an indication of polymerization) in some of the testing done by Joe Beatty - but really need more research to determine the extent/speed this 'natural degradation' of the oil is increased by different processing/handling techniques. A very common misconception is if ya don't see 'chicken-skin', ya don't have poly issues. Oxidative Polymerization is happening BEFORE we get the oil - that is what the TBHQ and citric acid is added for. These ingredients SLOW the reaction down long enough to provide adequate life in the fryers.

I used a VO 'fuel stabilizer' a friend mixed up for several months. The most notable difference I had was SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASED FILTER LIFE. Both pre-filtering and on truck. Why? Because LOOONG before you see poly, it is 'thickening' the oil and plugging up your filters...

[Clay]

I mixed matched galvanized and black pipe when i built mine, not knowing then of course and now i am too lazy to change it so it remains and i can't say i have experienced any poroblem because of it. The milk hose on mine was a design change aslo...i had black rubber hose and the VO would literally sweat right through it over a little time so i changed all the hose to clear braided an its been on there for a year now and i don't see any reason to think about changing it again.

[greasyX]

I draw settled oil of top of ibc(2-6 weeks) in sunlight,pump with 100 micron pre-filter in pump ,add startron and bio-kleen,store up tp 18-24 months.out of sunlightat 50-60f(similar to wine or cider storage).I then CF 60 gallon batches when needed thus putting the brakes on the poly"chances "from the CF......................greasy

[sbaker]

On the subject of polymerization with a centrifuge, I think (I have no experience of my own to back this up) that the simple centrifuge type would not be as bad as something like the dieselcraft. I think the people that use the dieselcraft tend to heat up the oil a lot more for flash evaporation to get the water out and they run the oil at much higher pressure (the oil pressure is used to spin the centrifuge) which I assume results in higher exposure to air when it enters and leaves the bowl - and it needs to be run through multiple passes.

Some of you may be familiar with a guy that uses the handle SunWizard. He started his own site over at http://www.burnveg.com/forum/. He's a strong advocate of the centrifuge (dieselcraft) and has been using it for a long time.

[greasyX]

Thanks for the sunwizard plug,but your preaching to the choir.Check old threads on Centrifuge types,advantages and disadvantages(8-08?).I have the oc-50 set-up and it works for my needs.......greasy

[skyskijason]

He's a strong advocate of the centrifuge (dieselcraft) and has been using it for a long time.

Allegedly - keep in mind 'a long time' in internet talk is often not as long as actual, real-world time ... Thats really not a great source of info, I find alot of skewed facts and people justifying what they've done (and preached as 'gospel' to others) on nearly every forum about VO. Careful what ya decide to believe, ever heard of 'Dana'? Once upon a time alot of folks actually believed he knew what he was talking about!

Trust me, we are all just learning here. I've read more on the subject than nearly everyone I've met, but I certainly do not have all the answers - in fact, prolly just MORE questions! There are no 'VO as-a-fuel Experts', but the junkyards are filling up with VO experiments and the IP and injector rebuilders have been quite busy w/them as well.

[sbaker]

Allegedly - keep in mind 'a long time' in internet talk is often not as long as actual, real-world time ... Thats really not a great source of info, I find alot of skewed facts and people justifying what they've done (and preached as 'gospel' to others) on nearly every forum about VO. Careful what ya decide to believe, ever heard of 'Dana'? Once upon a time alot of folks actually believed he knew what he was talking about!

Yes, I know who Dana is. While his attitude leaves something to be desired, and he seems to be a bit of a zealot on the subject of water, I didn't know that anyone had concluded that he didn't know what he's talking about. He has done some good work for the field, IMO - things like the WVO sucker design are good ideas. That said, I don't spend a bunch of time looking for his latest input. Every thread he is in seems to turn into a flame war. I haven't been on infopop in months.

I agree with what you are saying - a lot of people like to present themselves as subject matter experts (in every field, not just WVO) so you have to beware of putting too much stock in what anyone else says. In general, most subjects are more complicated than they first appear and what works for one guy might not work for you.

[VTVegiPower]

"Just curious - why bother w/CF if ya have an upflow system? I see less filters used in the long run (theoretically), but you can buy ALOT of filters for cost to set up a CF..." -skyskijason

First off, how do you post quotes from previous posts?

I am planning to filter large quantities of oil and simply relying on heat and settle will take far too much time. I am also supplying the oil for other people so I want the extra peace of mind that it is completely clean. Ideally I should never have to store oil for more than a week or two if more than a day or two, so it sounds like full, well sealed barrels should be sufficient. I am curious at what ratio you mix in startron and bio-kleen greasyx.

The centrifuge will be handy for cleaning other waste oils as well. I'm tired of contributing to ExxonMobil's record profits while a lot of us can barely bring in a paycheck and have to choose between heat and food.

Thanx again for all the input guys. :cheers:

[greasyX]

Bio-kleen is a "shock' TREATMENT,Startron was 3.2 oz to a 55 gallon barrel=5 juice barrels per container.Do yourself a favor and order from truck shop(bigger containers less money per treatment).Last time I got 96 oz bio-kleen for $100-+,sounds like alot except 16 oz is about $20,saves you $20.I have treated and stored for 12 months with this,and 18 months with a little Sea-foam in it..............good luck......greasy